OPS - discussions

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:12 pm

OPS is a Windows based GUI tool for downloading videos from the CVS one-time-use camcorder.

I just put out the initial alpha release of OPS, which can be downloaded here: https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=134210&package_id=159692&release_id=346536

Current features are limited to connecting to camcorder, unlocking, downloading last video, and displaying challenge/response.

(BTW, if you're wondering about the name, google "saturn ops")

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:45 pm

Great job - Astounding tool from BillW!! 8)

I still have my Saturn plugged into OPS (with vast pleasure for both). There is no need to unplug to delete last video - delete button works fine while still connected. Very Happy

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:59 pm

Larry,

In the Ops zip, there are executables linked for libusb 0.1.8.0, 0.1.10.1 and a popular inbetween-releases flavor too. So you can take your pick of which libusb version to install.

VID=040a is Kodak. (don't know about PID=5009 though.) Are you sure that's not another device? If it's your Saturn camera, this would be the third VID they've released camcorders under! (I'll have to adjust Ops code if this is the case)

You might care to try libusb 0.1.10.1 - there's a .inf creating wizard that can autodetect your camera. It's pretty easy.

Brite_eye, glad to hear it's useful in these early days. Still much more bloat to come before it can match pv2tool though! ;)

Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 204

Great job Bill. Thanks! Works fine on my machine (libusb 10, WinXP laptop) and yes, the delete button on the camera still works, which is a nice surprise.

Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 13

Works for me. Great job Bill, morcheeba and everyone else who figured this out.

Joined: 02 Aug 2005 Posts: 3 Location: Ligonier, Pa

Thanks Bill for pointing me in the right direction, pid&vid were wrong, they are vid 167b & pid 0101. Works GREAT now. Also thanks to Billw and everyone else who worked so hard to make this happen!! If I can help out in any way let me know.
Larry Smile

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 1538 Location: is everything

Likewise - I ended up with a VID of 167B and PID of 0101. Very nice hack - almost too easy! (no opening the camera, shorting things, etc) I wonder how long that will last...

That said, the video is, well, bad - for something that CVS expected me to pay nearly $50 for. Hacked, and its a different story. I can take unlimited "poodle shots" of our dog - and email them. I (obviously) would be willing to pay $31 for that.

The question is, who would pay $50 per throw for this? I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but unlike the PV2 cameras, I don't see *any* market segment buying this. For the price of just three cameras + developing, you can have a decent video recorder that you can actually plug into your TV.

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:07 am

BillW - Astounding job. Kudos to all... morcheeba, daBass, brite_eye, mconsidine, tango. Wow, works like a charm. How long do you think it will take to plug this hole?

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:16 am

There are an awful lot of cameras on the rack at my local CVS. I think we'll be ok for a bit, at least until we get slashdotted.

When the next payday rolls around I plan to pick up another 3. I'm going to gift a couple to friends and family. Then I have to factor in that I'll kill 2 or 3 with careless experiments. Smile

Speaking of the hole - this one was big enough to drive the proverbial truck through. PD should really be embarassed about not bounds checking the key-memory download routine.

Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 52

It's just possible that PD is not unsympathetic to our "cause" and have left this trapdoor in (or even put it in) as an easter egg. Their enigneers are geeks too, you know.

As for bad video, remember the "blue" days of the PV2 images. I wouldn't be surprised if some experimenting is needed to get the right codec settings and perhas other parameters to optimize the results.

Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 204

Actually, that's an interesting point, wai. If PD's arrangement with CVS is for royalties based on the number of units CVS buys from them, then it might be in their best interest to have it hacked. Look at it this way : CVS buys one unit and 9 people reuse it. PD's royalty is on one unit. But if the thing is hacked, then 10 people buy 10 units. Doesn't help CVS any, but better for PD.

However, if the arrangement is for a split of sales and "reuse" fees, the above logic goes out the door.

Joined: 09 Jun 2005 Posts: 66

Don't forget... someone should put together some sort of HOWTO or Word doc that contains all the instructions for wiring up a cable for the camera, installing the drivers, installing the software, and dowloading/playing the videos. I have two camcorders sitting on my desk at home, waiting for the dust to settle a little before I dig in.

Thanks for all the hard work to date!

Joined: 05 Jul 2005 Posts: 61

The cable needed matches a PV2 cable, so there
are plethora guides about making one (or two, or
three, hehe!)

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 1538 Location: is everything

mconsidine wrote:

Actually, that's an interesting point, wai. If PD's arrangement with CVS is for royalties based on the number of units CVS buys from them, then it might be in their best interest to have it hacked. Look at it this way : CVS buys one unit and 9 people reuse it. PD's royalty is on one unit. But if the thing is hacked, then 10 people buy 10 units. Doesn't help CVS any, but better for PD.

However, if the arrangement is for a split of sales and "reuse" fees, the above logic goes out the door.

That's actually an interesting question - who does get hurt when cameras don't get developed, or when the clerks give away recycled cameras?

I suspect that when we hack new cameras, both companies are affected, but when we get the recycled cameras for free, only PureDigital is affected.

The reason I suspect this is that CVS wouldn't freely give away much, if any, of the profits from developing. That has become their new bread and butter. I don't have an inside track on this, but I suspect that PD takes profit off of the initial sale, as well as a percentage of the developing costs (which would explain why the developing computers must "phone home") That said, I doubt they care what happens to the camera once it is developed - their part of the bargain is likely over (other than the agreement to collect and ship the developed cameras back)

What I don't get is the "normal" economics - how is this an improvement, from CVS' standpoint, over a regular film OTUC.

The only improvement for the drug stores I can see is that (in theory) only they can develop your camera. You can't buy a film camera from them, and then go to WalMart to have it developed. Otherwise, it appears to be virtually identical to the way film OTUC's are sold. If anything, any cut that PD takes on the developing would actually eat into the profitability, as compared to film OTUC's, since the drugstores only have to pay for consumables - not consumables + fees. (I guess - perhaps they do have to pay royalties to Kodak and Fujifilm? Anyone know if this is true?)

I suspect these cameras are more a ploy to gain customer loyalty than anything else. Crap, I've been in CVS more in the last two months than I had in the previous four years! They are counting on the novelty of "digital" to get people in the door - hopefully twice!

The more interesting part of this story is that you can actually take a Ritz OTUC and develop it at a CVS store or vice versa. That's what throws the wrench into the logic. You would think both store chains would demand that only they be able to develop cameras they sold. Otherwise, the "advantage" over film OTUCs is lost. If WalMart gets into an agreement with PD, I suspect it will pretty much be over - they will undercut everyone on developing charges.

Who knows? I still don't think enough cameras are being hacked to make much of a difference (yet). Makezine and slashdot notwithstanding, how many "average" customers are going to go to the trouble? I think the bigger problem for PD, and these cameras, is economic. They just aren't that great a value, and when the "new" wears off, I think most customers are going to realize that. Crap, it doesn't take much math to realize that after buying only 4 or 5 of these, and getting them developed, you could have bought a REAL digital camera with similar specs and fewer restrictions.

Joined: 20 Apr 2005 Posts: 19

I havent been paying much attention sense the last hack (PV2) but what kind of hardware modification is required? Is it the same plug as the PV2, same pinout to USB and all? Hope so, I'll just solder a usb plug on it Very Happy

Are there any pictures of the disection and pinout, etc? I will have to pick one up very soon, that is for sure.

edit: ok, so same pinout? is it roughly the same formfactor as the PV2? (if this is the case, then some dremmeling and hot glue will be needed to mount a usb plug)

Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 53 Location: Portland Oregon

johnboy12358 wrote:

I havent been paying much attention sense the last hack (PV2) but what kind of hardware modification is required? Is it the same plug as the PV2, same pinout to USB and all? Hope so, I'll just solder a usb plug on it Very Happy

Are there any pictures of the disection and pinout, etc? I will have to pick one up very soon, that is for sure.

edit: ok, so same pinout? is it roughly the same formfactor as the PV2? (if this is the case, then some dremmeling and hot glue will be needed to mount a usb plug)

???? Can't you read the available info like everyone else? All of your questions have already been answered ;-)

Joined: 20 Apr 2005 Posts: 19

Im soooooooo lazy though...
Fine, Ill do a search Razz

Joined: 03 Aug 2005 Posts: 46 Location: Bowling Green, KY

OK, somebody help me out here, I'm having no luck.

When I first plug in the camera, should Windows identify it as a Saturn, or should I get a "USB device has malfinctioned" error before I have a driver?

Not 100% sure my cable is correct, though it does look good.

Hopefully once I get Windows to see it, it will be smooth sailing...

Oh, this is XP, by the way.

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 1538 Location: is everything

Even without a driver, Windows will pick up on the fact that it is a Saturn device. (apparently it gets returned in the USB identification strings). If you see "a USB device has malfunctioned, then you either have a bad connection, or a dead USB interface on the camera/computer) I would suggest checking your cable more carefully.

For some reason, the same cable that fits like a glove on my PV2's is a tad loose on my camcorder. I'm going to use a bit of two-sided foam tape (with the paper on one side) to act as a shim - though the connector stays in well enough that it works.

Joined: 03 Aug 2005 Posts: 46 Location: Bowling Green, KY

Drat, I was afraid of that.

Time to do some closer cable examination. And cry. Much crying.

Joined: 03 Aug 2005 Posts: 46 Location: Bowling Green, KY

The cable seemed to be good, I was just plugging it in too far I think (using a pilot cradle)

After I got that silliness worked out, everything works great. Thanks for the awesome GUII, and all the advice.

Joined: 04 Aug 2005 Posts: 2

wait, im very interested in this, i was just wondering a few things though.

1. so if i buy the "one time use" video camera, and install the software, i can use this as much as i want?

2. what do i need to connect the camera to my computer?

3. is there any thing i need to get to get the software to work?

thanks

Joined: 04 Aug 2005 Posts: 2

Having a little trouble here.

Using a palm m100 cable I modified for an old puredigital dakota camera.
I used the inf wizard from libusb-win32-device-bin-0.1.10.1 I got off sourceforge to make an INF and chose that as my driver when windows detected new hardware.

Using Ops_libusb-0.1.10.1.exe I can open my camcorder. But when I go to Unlock I get the error: Failed at 0xfe write (set challenge read index)

Pressing Unlock again gives me the error:
Failed at 0xff read (read 4 bytes of challenge)

Any ideas?

Oh, here is some other weird behavior that might help identify my problem. When running testlibusb-win.exe, I get different results each time I refresh. Some times it is "Unable to fetch product string" or "Unable to fetch serial number string" but other times it will detect them fine. Other times it will display almost nothing and say "Couldn't retrieve descriptors."

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:37 am

My first guess would be that the cable is a bit off. Double check the joints, see if you get more consistant libusb results with the cable in one position or another.

If you're absolutely sure there's nothing wrong with the cable, try another computer. (maybe usb hardware is flakey)

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 1538 Location: is everything

Invader Bugs wrote:

wait, im very interested in this, i was just wondering a few things though.

1. so if i buy the "one time use" video camera, and install the software, i can use this as much as i want?

2. what do i need to connect the camera to my computer?

3. is there any thing i need to get to get the software to work?

thanks

Yep - but you had better hurry. The hole we are using is unbelievable - you just ask the camera for the response key, then send it back! It's like you asking what you should tell the judge to go free, then telling him/her, and going free!

I suspect it won't last long. (I've already bought two)